DYK writes: And what did the dictionary provide? Truth? After all the years of enlightened people willing to share their knowledge of the "truth", is that "truth" explained in the dictionary? If it is (it isn't), then there should be no journeys, no searching, should there? Faith here... It IS a great paradox isn't it. We, as the unenlightened or unaware, seek THAT which we already are. It is not so much that we BECOME TRUTH Absolute.... since we already are THAT, what we do NEED though is RECOGNITION of THAT which we already are, and therein lies the journey. ~ ~ ~ As dualistic humans we have for lifetime after lifetime incorrectly identified with our false ego. We perceive ourselves as limited individual beings, be they physical OR non-physical. Even the "New Agers" who "GET" that they are Spirit having a physical experience are nonthe less still trapped in the Play of duality... so you get MY spirit VS YOUR spirit... and so on. Truth Absolute though deals with the WHOLE of the matter. When Truth Absolute does eventually burst onto the scene TYPICALLY the individual mind cannot HOLD that infinite Perspective since the mind is finite and Truth is infinite. Typically only part of the 'veil' is removed. Sooooo now a process begins, a journey BACK to one's own True, constant and Perfect Self which we never really left. ~

A very worthwhile read if you can find it is the story of Jnaneshwar Maharaj ( India app.1275 ad ) This great BEing as a young child reached full Self Realization the instant he came into contact with a Grace Bestower. One might conclude here that he did not have to do any sadhana, any spiritual work, that he did not have to make any inner "journey", but such a one may well have put in a great amount of seeking in previous lifetimes and it simply culminated in this one so that it only appeared to be instant to an onlooker.  ~  Of course, hehehe from the Perspective of our Higher SELF (which is the same in all) .. there is no journey. The Dreamer is aware that even while the mind is caught in a dream... they have always been themselves. ~ ~ ~

Part 2 ~  The Dictionary CAN be a helpful tool, but MORE is needed.  *******

 The dictionary can often be a useful guide.   What does the dictionary provide?  It provides us with a ROOT definition of a word.   Does it have the power to illumine that word?  Does it have the power to GIVE  direct understanding of a word?  No, that MUST come from someplace else.  ( Hint:  within ), still, it can be a useful tool in helping us develop greater understanding.

 Point:  A color blind person can easily go to the  dictionary and read about the color.... RED ~ [Red is any of a number of similar colors evoked by light consisting predominantly of the longest wavelengths of light discernible by the human eye, in the wavelength range of roughly 630–740 nm. ]   So it can tell us a bit about the nature of the color red,  still, after all that can the color blind person KNOW Red? No.  Even if the definition were written in RED... one who is not able to perceive red will not experience it.  

Likewise....  the very words  Truth Absolute  .. ARE Truth itself, but because the subjective and finite mind of man is still veiled in duality it cannot yet perceive this.  Humanity for the most part is  Truth Blind if you will.  It IS right in front of us... IS US, and yet we are unable to RECOGNIZE this ultimate, unchanging and unlimited constant reality that we ARE.  ~  So, is Truth explained in the dictionary?  Yea it is.. but having access to the explanation does not automatically grant revelation, direct understanding of it.

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Merriam-Webster:   TRUE:   (1) : being in accordance with the actual state of affairs <true description> (2) : conformable to an essential reality (3) : fully realized or fulfilled  b : ideal, essential c : being that which is the case rather than what is manifest or assumed
 d : consistent
 
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  With the help of the dictionary,  as one explores the word TRUTH & TRUE  we find that there is a distinction made between subjective truth ... that it is not a constant reality, and TRUTH Absolute, which IS the constant reality.    ~    Through reading about Truth and Truth Absolute we begin to see that they are treated quite differently.. and that is also useful to consider if one is a real seeker of the Ultimate Knowledge which Transcends the mind, as opposed to subjective knowledge which depends on the subjective mind and the intellect.  ^^^^^

 What the dictionary says about the word Truth:  

Wikipedia:    Truth can have a variety of meanings, from the state of being the case, the body of real things, events, facts, actuality, or fidelity to an original or to a standard. In archaic usage it could be fidelity, constancy or sincerity in action, character, and utterance.[1] The term has no single definition about which a majority of professional philosophers and scholars agree, and various theories and views of truth continue to be debated. There are differing claims on such questions as what constitutes truth; what things are truthbearers capable of being true or false; how to define and identify truth; the roles that revealed and acquired knowledge play; and whether truth is subjective, relative, objective, or absolute. This article introduces the various perspectives and claims, both today and throughout history.

OK, so right away we can see that the word TRUTH is problematic.  It is not a cut and dry thing.    For one who  is actively seeking Truth Absolute the Dictionary is giving them a very important clue here.    As one begins to explore what TRUTH is we find that it is in fact the most esoteric of realities.   It is difficult enough to grasp what  subjective Truth is when looking at it from an intellectual / philosophical perspective, through ACQUIRED knowledge, to say via the mind which is dualistic in nature but when we move into the realm of the Absolute / non dual perspective  it becomes pretty much impossible, more difficult to perceive than say, a color blind person trying to gain the actual experience of RED via their intellect alone.   And yet, Truth Absolute is as EASY to perceive for the mind which has received  REVEALED (Transcendent) knowledge) as it is for a color sited person to perceive the color Red.   There is nothing to THINK about or intellectualize about... it just IS.    It does not take any effort from the mind, one simply RECOGNIZES TRUTH Absolute as THAT which is all around them, IS THEM, is ALL.  ~  ~  ~

So, there is Truth from the dualistic perspective, where we have this play of subject/object,  and then there is Truth Absolute which is Non-Dual in nature.   Here we come to REALIZE  that we ARE Truth and Truth is all that exists.  It is the ONE unchanging Constant AND has no oppositional force associated with it.    ~  ~  ~ 

  BTW:   what Njoy writes is very true  ...<<  Finding your way is such a deep seated personal journey,>>  And that journey can start by picking up the dictionary and beginning to contemplate just what it is saying to you.   Truth Absolute is the most mystical of topics... it actually has a life of its own and will REVEAL its Self at the right time.   Truth can be revealed in an instant and you will laugh with great Joy as you realize how cleverly YOU hid it ... right within your very Self. 

~ Seekers eventually become Finders ~

Faith wrote:   BTW:   what Njoy writes is very true  ...<<  Finding your way is such a deep seated personal journey,>>

DidYouKnow writes:  This is a way of deflection.  Here's what is presented:  Sure there's a "truth" "out there" "within there" but no one can find it for another, no one can tell another what it is, where it is, how it is, but, yes, there is a 'truth', and not only a "truth" but an ABSOLUTE truth, and heck, go farther, an ULTIMATE truth.  Just don't ask any questions about it, because there are no answers for those questions, except silly-nilly answers.

Faith wrote:   And that journey can start by picking up the dictionary and beginning to contemplate just what it is saying to you.   Truth Absolute is the most mystical of topics...

DidYouKnow writes:  Where in the dictionary is "truth absolute"?  It isn't there.  Where in the dictionary is "absolute truth"?  Where in the dictionary is "ultimate truth"?  It isn't there.

What is in the dictionary is a definition of "truth".  "Truth" cannot be embellished, dressed up, and used so cavalierly as Faith and Njoy try to do.  Attaching "absolute" and "ultimate" is redundant.  Either something is "true" or it is not "true."  What is "true" is truth.  (Assertions don't count)

Faith wrote:  it actually has a life of its own

DidYouKnow writes:  According to??  Why, Faith's assertion.  Why, Faith's faith.  Just say it, and it must be so. 

No, Faith, the real world does not work in this fashion.  "YOU" are not the source of this kind of knowledge, in the first place.  In the 2nd place, you may as well be using, "Once upon a time....." 

To assert in the manner you do, means nothing.  Repeat, to do so means nothing, other than you are asserting.

Faith wrote:   and will REVEAL its Self at the right time. 

DidYouKnow writes:   Please.  First, you've not desribed it, you've not said anything that substantiates anything you assert.  You've offered nothing more, nothing less, then the usual claims, claims by so many down through the years, those claims going in different directions. 

Their commonality, of course, nothing substantive was ever proferred, nothing was ever backed up, none of it has one iota of evidence or proof.  Other than the claims.

Faith wrote:   Truth can be revealed in an instant and you will laugh with great Joy as you realize how cleverly YOU hid it ... right within your very Self. 

DidYouKnow writes:  Here's a good opportunity for you, Faith, for you, Njoy, to describe your personal finding of the ultimate and/or absolute Truth.  In addition to describing it, explain then what it is EXACTLY what it is.

Faith wrote:    Seekers eventually become Finders

DidYouKnow writes:  Assuming that Faith and Njoy "found" the ultimate truth, then what is it?  Rolling back a bit on this thread, WhirlWindFlower, in her responses, seemed lost as far as this kind of Truth was presented. 

Question:

Who's a Christian?  Faith?  Njoy?  WhirlWindFlower?  If so, how so?  What does being a "Christian" mean to each of them?  How instrumental is the Bible to their Christianity?

And the question never addressed, so far, by Njoy, by Faith et al, is what to do with:

Paranormal  Extraordinary  SuperNatural

Note the prefixes.  Those prefixes are to present an idea of things unnatural.  Think:  How can anything be "unnatural".  If something exists, then it is natural.

Now, add to those three, Ultimate and Absolute Truth.

Same basic problem.  What does it mean when there are attempts to go beyond Truth?  Truth is true.  What is true is truth.  Think in terms of the adjective, 'unique'.  Can something unique be MORE unique?  No.

As "more unique" cannot be used, neither can paranomal, extraordinary, supernatural, absolute/ultimate truth.

   Post #3    Faith's reply to DYK        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 

DKY writes: Or, more to the point:  An assertion....just another assertion in the long, laundry list of religious assertions. 

 DYK writes:  The logical caveat is that there were no explanations.  There were assertions, and not even good ones, since the terms used were without real meaning. >>

Faith:     ~   Let's put it this way ... there seems to be no explanation  which makes sense when  processed via the finite  subjective/dualistic mind.  Logic, as useful a tool as it might be in intellectual pursuits, is of little use when it comes to Truth Absolute.  TRuth Absolute is Transcendent Knowledge.  The finite mind and its power of reason is not going to help us too much here.   Just as no matter how intelligent or logical a color blind person is... it isn't going to get them any closer to the direct experience of the color RED.

 DYK  << When thinking and using the flowery descriptive terms, words, metaphors, similes, any kind of figurative language, it normally an effort to evade the actual process of thinking and the questions that cause thinking. >>

    Why would you make that assumption?   There is an excellent and necessary  reason that metaphors are often brought into play around this most esoteric of topics.      When attempting to discuss the Non-Dual perspective (Truth Absolute)  using dualistic words  there is really no other choice.  Such metaphors as dream & dreamer  or  The POT and Its CLAY,  etc. are often instrumental in getting across the very nature of Truth Absolute to someone who has yet to touch this MOST esoteric of states.    IF say  ( using a metaphor here <g> )... if THINKING about the word RED could help a color blind person have the experience of RED then a metaphor would be unnecessary... but it doesn't.   ~  ~   ~  

 If you're old enough   : )   ...    Carl Sagan, when discussing the topic of other  dimensions, used the metaphor of the Flatlanders.   These lil guys being 2 dimensional had no concept of UP.   Now a mysterious hand enters that realm and picks one of the little guys UP.   We can only imagine that it blew his lil mind  <g>  to suddenly experience UPness.   But his real problems started when he tried to describe his newly expanded reality to the other flatlanders.    What to do?   He is now back in Flatland, he can't point UP.   His only choice then is to try and create some type of workable metaphor that might SUGGEST a more expanded reality.   

Just as the flatlander cannot point UP, similarly the finite dualistic mind cannot transcend itself and KNOW it's own  INFINITE Non-Dual Reality.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

DYK  -  Here's a question that, so far, has gone unaddressed:

What is the import of prefixes in front of supernatural, paranormal, and extraordinary?  Prefix ~ Para- -Main Entry: 1para -Variant(s): or par-   - Function: prefix : Etymology: Greek, from para; akin to Greek pro before — more at for   - 1 : beside : alongside of : beyond : aside from

If any of the above was real, then wouldn't it be natural?  If so, then is there anything that can be super, para, or extra, somehow separate from natural?  If something exists, isn't it natural.

Great point.  And I guess the answer lies in which View/Views of reality one is currently able to hold.   For example:   IF  one's awareness was  infinite / omnipresent  then there would be no need for the word THERE ...  since to such a one everywhere would be  HERE.   But for MOST their experience of reality is that there is a finite  HERE... which their awareness  currently occupies and there is also a THERE ... which their awareness does NOT occupy.    

So... we have normal and we have para-normal.      Since most humans rely on their physical senses to interact with their physical reality  the standard is to call that NORMAL.     However, when we  (our awareness of self) are able to move BEYOND the limited realm of the physical and expand into higher realms of subtle Consciousness  then the word PARA  ... denoting BEYOND the established NORM, is used.      Of course, if one's Awareness has yet to expand BEYOND the established NORM... the use of the prefix PARA will make little sense.  But eventualy .. trust me  hehe .. it will.

It's not that the physical realm is NOT Normal or real, or that the non-physical realms are Normal or unreal.  They both have a certain reality to them because they are being experienced via the mind.     What is Normal for someone might be not so normal at all to someone else.    We can probably agree here that the ability to see disembodied or subtle forms is Not Normal or typical... for most human beings,  therefore  Para or beyond Normal range of human experience is indicated in such cases.

I'm not looking for agreement here  : P  Just trying to explain why these prefixes do become necessary at times.   ~~~~~~~ 

 ~  ~  ~    DYK writes:  Again and again the contradictions.  It's "in the dictionary".  "Enlightened people" have discovered the 'truth' and shared the 'truth'.  But yet, in the next breath comes "finding your way" and "deep-seated"  -- It can't be both ways.  Either the "truth" IS, discovered by the many enlightened and shared by them, and in the dictionary; or the "search", "find", "discover", "journey" means so far, "truth" is nebulous.  Is "truth" a god?  A "feeling"?  ----------------------  

FAITH HERE  ~  ~  ~  Point:  Enlightened Beings can only share their Transcendent Knowledge with THOSE who are themselves Enlightened, just as with mundane knowledge  two people must be able to share the same experience in order to relate to it.   If you want a friend to know what chocolate tastes like you need to share your chocolate bar with them.  : )  The only exception here is with (extremely) rare beings who act as Grace Bestowers... who are able to transmit to  "another"  their own State of Truth Absolute.   This transmission of Non Dual  Knowledge is rare, but it is possible.  Such BEings are able to do this because the very nature of Reality is ONEness.  To say, we all share this ONE same Consciousness.  It is a rare being that can take us BEYOND our limited perspective and move our finite awareness INTO its INFINITE perspective.  A good analogy here is of a lit candle being able to lite an unlit candle.  We are all candles just waiting to be LIT and perceive our own INFINTE and Perfect Nature. *Note... where Religions busy themselves with trying to save souls and get them into some heaven.... Those who speak of Truth Absolute are referencing something FAR greater...  Knowledge of one's own True Infinite and Perfect SELF... which we already are but have fallen into the dream of forgetfulness. So.. Wake UP dear ONE.  : )

Please note:  Truth Absolute being Non Dual in nature, exists beyond all judgment, beyond the play of Good vs Evil.  It is Perfect Consciousness, Pure BEing, the ultimate reality and has NOTHING to do with religion which is deep into the play of  Duality, of Good vs Evil and Judgment.  To those in duality there is ME VS THAT which is Not Me.   The barriers of seperation are still in place.  The ultimate ONEness of everything eludes them. 

~  ~  ~     On the topic if Truth Absolute .... it is said:  Truth Absolute, being INFINITE in its Nature lies beyond all possible definition.  It is Transcendent in nature.  You could say: The definition of Truth Absolute is that it exists beyond all definition.   :P  

NOTE:  When the Non -Dual Perspective is heard by the mind that is still operating from a DUALISITIC perspective only... many MANY statements will APPEAR to be contradictory.  It cannot be helped. But the moment that mind is able to awaken, even for a moment, into the Non-Dual perspective, these apparent contradicticions are resolved.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

   ~ ~ ~ DYK:  -- It can't be both ways.  Either the "truth" IS, discovered by the many enlightened and shared by them, and in the dictionary; or the "search", "find", "discover", "journey" means so far, "truth" is nebulous.  Is "truth" a god?  A "feeling"?  ----------------------  

~  ~  ~  Faith here :    Being INFINTITE in nature, Truth Absolute  can indeed be "BOTH ways" , either / or ,  and NEITHER way, simultaniously.     Mind boggling?  Absolutely.   I like where you say  Truth is NEBULOUS.   (Lacking definitive form or limits)   YES!!  it is, Yet at the same time... Truth Absolute can take ON the characters of FORM and limits.. that would be us, hehe  Infinite Consciousness enjoying as it were.. its temporary fiinte /  contracted state.       Ultimately there is nothing that TRUTH is limited to even as it experiences limitation via the mind of man. 

Is Truth Absolute a god?  Sure, why not?   Since THAT  (Truth Absolute) is ALL inclusive and nothing can exists OUTSIDE of THAT which is The ONE.    However.... that god which Truth has manifest AS is  ignorant of its own Truth, otherwise it would not bother to limit itself to a godhood.    We too are stuck in the same dilemma as that god. 

BTW:  To THINK that one is God but that others are NOT God, is simply hubris and the sign of a deluded mind.   Something to contemplate.. or not. 

   To say that the topic of Truth Absolute is esoteric in nature is probably THE greatest  understatement of all time.  : )

   The Bottom line here is that Truth Absolute is both Immanent AND Transcendent  

IMMANENT:   being within the limits of possible experience or knowledge compare

TRANSCENDENT:  in Kantian philosophy : being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge

                            Peace, Faith      FINI

Faith wrote:       ~   Let's put it this way ... there seems to be no explanation  which makes sense when  processed via the finite  subjective/dualistic mind. 

DidYouKnow writes:  And, let's put it this way:  You have no other "mind" to work with, other than your human mind, finite or not.  After one tries to "process" the undefinable, the unknowable, even the unthinkable, he or she should realize the problem that the unknowable, unthinkable, the undefinable, cannot be processed.  To suggest being able to do so, runs you smack into a white wall of oxymoron.

Faith wrote:   Logic, as useful a tool as it might be in intellectual pursuits, is of little use when it comes to Truth Absolute.

DidYouKnow writes:  Logic isn't a tool.  Logic occurs when there is a process involved, the normal basic base used:  comparison/contrast, cause/effect, simple listing, sequential ordering.

Faith wrote:   TRuth Absolute is Transcendent Knowledge. 

DidYouKnow writes:  There is no 'absolute truth or ultimate truth' in the dictionary.  What is in the dictionary is the notion of transcendent, which goes to the same dead end as "paranormal', supernatural, extraordinary."  Transcendent is "beyond normal perceptions."  As soon as that is read, the reader knows it's an assertion.  "There are ghosts."  Or, transcendent is "being above and independent of the material universe."  Again, this is a meaningless assertion.  "There is a heaven in the sky."  Or, "being beyond ordinary perception."  Again, going to "unknowable."  Just think, if Absolute Truth is unknowable, then how to know?  It's a metaphysical Catch 22.

Faith wrote:   The finite mind and its power of reason is not going to help us too much here. 

DidYouKnow writes:  The "finite mind" is the only kind you, I, we have.  When used properly, reasoning is the product.  Give me "something" solid.  What, other than your brain, controls anything you do or think or feel?

Faith wrote:    Just as no matter how intelligent or logical a color blind person is... it isn't going to get them any closer to the direct experience of the color RED.

DidYouKnow writes:  But plenty of others know what 'red' is.  Because 'red' is real, there, for a majority to KNOW, to see.  Red is not transcendental.  And the reason a color-blind person can't see red is logically explained, in a real biological manner.  Your analogy does not work.

DidYouKnow writes: Faith, you and Njoy might try answering message 27, this thread.

---------------------------------------

Faith wrote:    TRANSCENDENT:  in Kantian philosophy : being beyond the limits of all possible experience and knowledge

DidYouKnow writes:  Did you know, by listing this definition, you have gone to my side of the argument?

If this definition is true (and it is), then how will a "seeker" ever become a "finder"? 

All of this kind of assertion, whether it is transcendent, gossomer, supernatural, ultimate/absolute truth, paranormal, extraordinary has the same Catch 22, the same Achille's Heel, the same nonsense.

And, if any of it were "found", it would then contradict the very definition you've provided.  Think.

Faith wrote:   Great point.

DidYouKnow writes:  You bet.

Faith Wrote:    And I guess the answer lies in which View/Views of reality one is currently able to hold.

DidYouKnow writes:  This gets you into trouble.  Realty is realty.  It won't change.  What you're suggesting is that subjective trumps objective, which, of course, it doesn't.  A person's reality can be that there is a god, that there is a ghost, that aliens are among us; or a person can paranoid or delusional.  His reality is NOT REAL.  Yes, it's the only reality he has, but it is quasi-reality.

Faith wrote:    For example:   IF  one's awareness was  infinite / omnipresent  then there would be no need for the word THERE ...  since to such a one everywhere would be  HERE.

DidYouKnow writes:  It's neither here nor there, because you've gone back to "a person's reality" which may or may not have anything to do with REALITY.

   Faith wrote:    But for MOST their experience of reality is that there is a finite  HERE

DidYouKnow writes:  Not only finite, but tangible, concrete, observabale, feelable, smellable

Faith wrote:   ... which their awareness  currently occupies and there is also a THERE ... which their awareness does NOT occupy.  

DidYouKnow writes:  No.  You've already negated this with your definition of transcendent.  The "unknown" is neither here nor there, and it's a real problem when the reality is that there is NO way to KNOW if there is an UNKNOWN.  Reread you own definition.

Faith wrote:    So... we have normal

DIdYouKNow writes:  Yes, we have the natural.

Faith wrote:    and we have para-normal.  

DidYouKNow writes:  No, paranormal is an assertion.  Much like "God" is a metaphor for the unknown, "paranormal" serves the same role. 

   Faith wrote:    Since most humans rely on their physical senses to interact with their physical reality  the standard is to call that NORMAL.

DidYouKNow writes:  It "IS".

Faith Wrote:     However, when we  (our awareness of self) are able to move BEYOND the limited realm of the physical and expand into higher realms of subtle Consciousness  then the word PARA  ... denoting BEYOND the established NORM, is used.      Of course, if one's Awareness has yet to expand BEYOND the established NORM... the use of the prefix PARA will make little sense.  But eventualy .. trust me  hehe .. it will.

DidYouKNow writes:  No, Faith, there is no reason to trust you.  Your thought processes are thoroughly mismanaged, and appear to be irretrievably damaged.  Recall, you are speaking of the unknown.  Recall, you are speaking of finding and knowing what is OUTSIDE of human capabilities.  Yet, you say, hehehe, trust you.  OMMMMMMMMMM............

Faith wrote:   It's not that the physical realm is NOT Normal or real, or that the non-physical realms are Normal or unreal.  They both have a certain reality to them because they are being experienced via the mind. 

DidYouKNow writes:  The mind is the only guage, the only receptor.  And it can only work with the natural.  Again, if ANYTHING was real or existed, it has to be natural.  Assertions of "something" outside of natural do not suffice for proof or reality.  All that is done is give voice to mankind's imagination.  That imagination knows very few bounds.  But imagination does not make reality.  All the gods of history have been imagined, from Zeus to the Judeo/Christian/Isam god.  All of what you are opining (and Njoy is cheerleading) is from imagination.  Go back to EVERYTHING you've written and find the substance, the guts, the driving engines.  You won't be able to, because none exists.  All you've done is assert, the assertions spawned by your (and others) musing and imagination.

Faith wrote:    What is Normal for someone might be not so normal at all to someone else.

DidYouKnow writes:  This has nothing to do with our discussion.  Regardless of individual subjectivity, or inculcated beliefs, what is real does not change.  It doesn't matter that a person asserts, imagines, and presents the imaginations as TRUTH.  It doesn't matter because all the person can do, is assert, and like you, perhaps, say, "HeeHeehe, trust me..."

  Faith wrote:     We can probably agree here that the ability to see disembodied or subtle forms is Not Normal or typical... for most human beings,

DidYouKnow writes:  And no human being has ever seen, or can see, anything of this order, unless the mind has been chemically altered, either naturally (mental illness), or unnaturally (drugs).

Faith wrote:  therefore  Para or beyond Normal range of human experience is indicated in such cases.

DidYouKNow writes:  Except the "para" etc do not exist.   Back to basics:  If any of it did exist, it would be natural.  A god, if real, would not be supernatural, but natural.  Because people assert, claim, testify, it doesn't mean anything they are asserting claiming or testifying about is real.  Mankind has a rather extensive history of such claims without one iota of believable or acceptable proofs.

Faith wrote:    I'm not looking for agreement here  : P  Just trying to explain why these prefixes do become necessary at times.   

DidYouKNow writes:  It's not necessity as much as it is a way that society conducts its superstitions.  Unfortunately, the longer misinformation stays and lives from one generation to another, the more likely for the myth or superstition to become acceptable.  That's the main, maybe only, reason you are asserting what you are, thinking it has merit.

reply to DKQ # 4

DYK
Faith wrote:   BTW:   what Njoy writes is very true  ...<<  Finding your way is such a deep seated personal journey,>>
 
DidYouKnow writes:  This is a way of deflection.  Here's what is presented:  Sure there's a "truth" "out there" "within there" but no one can find it for another, no one can tell another what it is, where it is, how it is, but, yes, there is a 'truth', and not only a "truth" but an ABSOLUTE truth, and heck, go farther, an ULTIMATE truth.  Just don't ask any questions about it, because there are no answers for those questions, except silly-nilly answers.  

Faith writes:   No, it is NOT an attempt at deflection.   Its a way of TRYING to explain with dualistic words a Non Dual perspective... which is beyond difficult.  Still  sometimes some of us TRY and give it our best shot OK?    Actually what you said above is pretty accurate  ... up till the part where you say don't ask questions.   Why NOT ask questions?  It is in fact the ASKING of the Questions such as WHO AM I?  Where did I come from? What IS REALLY REAL???  IS there an Absolute Truth??  that begins the process of awakening.  Such SINCERE questions indicate that "The Student" is indeed ready.     SO by all means ASK away.   But ASK the Knower within your own BEing.  The Key to understanding lies WITHIN.    Dualistic Religion is  certainly not going to give it to you because they don't have it.     It is all about recognition of your own SELF  by your own SELF.      The one who is seeking IS the ONE being sought.    Sorry for the metaphor but that's really how it is.    Frustrating?  Oh yea... and it will get worse before it gets better.    It takes LOTS of patience to get beyond all those " silly-nilly " answers until Truth finally decides to show up ... in its own mercurial time.. shall we say.  If you only knew how long you have already waited.. you'd no doubt puke!  Seriously.
 @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Faith wrote:   And that journey can start by picking up the dictionary and beginning to contemplate just what it is saying to you.   Truth Absolute is the most mystical of topics...
 
DidYouKnow writes:  Where in the dictionary is "truth absolute"?  It isn't there.  Where in the dictionary is "absolute truth"?  Where in the dictionary is "ultimate truth"?  It isn't there.
 ( Try Googling Wikipedia... Truth Absolute is addressed right near the beginning )
 It IS OK  to take the words individually  OK    : )  When it comes to such an esoteric topic sometimes one needs to get creative.   The Knowledge of  Truth Absolute is available... Its a matter of a) being willing to go seeking that info. and b) being able to recognize it.   Interestingly.... and mystically actually... the moment we decide we really want to know, when that conviction comes.. YES... from "deep within"  :P   then  the right books, the right people and the right events do find their way into our lives.  
 
Some people are a bit like that old joke.... where the Divine ONE sends the drowning man a helecoptor, a fishing trauler, and a submarine? and he doesn't GET that  they were all manifestations of his plea  for help.     It really does help  to make one's self available to receive the messages that the Universe is constantly giving us.
 
IF one is ready to KNOW and really wants it    Transcendent Knowledge (Truth Absolute) will reveal itself.  True seekers DO eventually find.   Eventually, at some point in ones' existance,  Truth Absolute does become APPARENT.
 
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Merriam-Webster:  
 
 Truth:
 
2 a (1) : the state of being the case : fact (2) : the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3) often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality
 
 


Absolute:
 


Main Entry: ab·so·lute
 
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English absolut, from Anglo-French, from Latin absolutus, from past participle of absolvere to set free    Date: 14th century
1 a : free from imperfection : perfect   b : free or relatively free from mixture : pure > c : outright, unmitigated 
 3 a : standing apart from a normal or usual syntactical relation with other words or sentence elements   b :  standing alone without a modified substantive c   : having no object  4 : having no restriction, exception, or qualification 5 : positive, unquestionable <absolute proof>
6 a : independent of arbitrary standards of measurement  7 : fundamental, ultimate <absolute knowledge>
8 : perfectly embodying the nature of a thing.  9 : being self-sufficient and free of external references or relationships
 
 


 
DYK:   What is in the dictionary is a definition of "truth".  "Truth" cannot be embellished, dressed up, and used so cavalierly as Faith and Njoy try to do.  Attaching "absolute" and "ultimate" is redundant.  Either something is "true" or it is not "true."  What is "true" is truth.  (Assertions don't count)
Faith:  Sorry but  you are terribly mistaken here.  There is nothing cavalier about our words.   There is nothing more esoteric, no knowledge more rare, nothing more profound than the words we are speaking here or the type of Truth which we are referencing.  Perhaps that is WHY you cannot "hear" their meaning ... yet.      The problem..  with any communication is that if the Station is broadcasting and the radio is not set on the right channel.. the message is going to be missed. 
 
Faith wrote:  it actually has a life of its own
 
 
DidYouKnow writes:  According to??  Why, Faith's assertion.  Why, Faith's faith.  Just say it, and it must be so. 
 Faith:  Excuse me?   Now you're just venting.  If you really wanted to KNOW about Truth Absolute you'd become very still and LISTEN  .. within.      We can certainly agree that at this point in time the words I speak mean nothing to you.      That can change .. in an instant. 
 
 DYK :   "YOU" are not the source of this kind of knowledge, in the first place.  In the 2nd place, you may as well be using, "Once upon a time....." 
 At the risk of sounding obtuse here....  What do mean by the word YOU?  You as in the mundane small self, totally bound up in the false ego?  OR YOU as in Pure Consciousness the ONE Infinite Self , one's TRUE Self which is the same in ALL?  The Transcendent Self.     IF you mean the first.. and I suspect you do ... then you are totally correct in that  the small  " i " self  is most assuredly NOT the source.    And that has been my point all along.     
 Transcendent Knowledge has only ONE Source and it is not the mind or the intellect... it is one's TRUE SELF, which exists BEYOND the small  false ego self, which is currently quite hidden from you... and most of humanity.. but not all of humanity.  Some DO posses  Transcendent Knowledge.     But of course these words do mean nothing to you.   I know that.. that is why I am suggesting that you go SEEK THAT.. within and discover your True SELF.  Learn how to meditate on your own Higher Self.   There are a few excellent books out there for those who are in fact ready to KNOW.
  Suggested reading:   AUTOBIOGRAPHY OF A YOGI  by Paramahamsa Yogananda, and other such readings from his path:    Another excellent book on Transcendent Knowledge is : PLAY OF CONSCIOUSNESS by  Swami Muktananda.    Both speak eloquently of their own spiritual awakening to Higher Self.    Of the Christ / Krishna / Perfect Consciousness .. which are all the very same ONE. There are not just any books.. they are REVEALED scripture, which means  that IF we are able to read them from the same Place of Pure Consciousness that they were WRITTEN in,  Truth Absolute can be recognized.     It all depends if we are able to draw enough Grace, from our own Higher SELF.. to do so.   Sometimes it happens right away... at other times it takes a while.  Either way it is worth the effort.   BTW.. if one is NOT yet ready to read them they just won't .  It's just how it is. 
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Faith wrote:  << and will REVEAL its Self at the right time. >>
 
DidYouKnow writes:   Please.  First, you've not desribed it, you've not said anything that substantiates anything you assert.  You've offered nothing more, nothing less, then the usual claims, claims by so many down through the years, those claims going in different directions.  >>
Faith:   I didn't describe it? Dang right I didn't describe it  LOL...   You're not reading here to try and gather understanding.. your ego just wants to argue and be right it seems.   I said right at the start that Truth Absolute lies BEYOND ALL definition.   Whatever the finite subjective mind THINKS Transcendent Knowledge is... will NOT be it.  And still THAT CAN be known... from that place of stillness within.  This is why yogis meditate, to make contact with that Place of deep silence.     Those who have the courage, fortitude and most important ...LONGING to seek it  eventualy DO find it.   Ever hear the statement.. Be STILL and KNOW?    Truth is KNOWN in supreme Stillness.
If you are not yet ready to seek this most esoteric Knowledge that's OK.  Most are not.  It has nothing to do with one's intellect or how good or clever they are.  But in time you will be ready and THEN you will get a glimpse of what I can ONLY elude to right now.  
 Humanity is caught in the dream of imperfection and seperation of its own Higher Self,  but eventually one awakens from this dream of contracted reality and realizes their True Self.    You WILL be amazed.. that I guarantee.   
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Faith wrote:   Truth can be revealed in an instant and you will laugh with great Joy as you realize how cleverly YOU hid it ... right within your very Self. 
 
DidYouKnow writes:  Here's a good opportunity for you, Faith, for you, Njoy, to describe your personal finding of the ultimate and/or absolute Truth.  In addition to describing it, explain then what it is EXACTLY what it is.
Faith:  Trust me.. Muktanada and Yogananda do that FAR better than I ever could.  I am but a beacon, a way pointer.. whereas these such beings ARE the actual embodiment of Truth.  Such rare beings as these have the power to reveal Truth directly.    Such BEings as these are the LIT candle if you will which have the power to awaken.  And unlike religion here there is nothing to believe, nothing to accept on blind faith.   Just be open to receive and then hold onto THAT, nurturing what one has been freely given.
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Faith wrote:    Seekers eventually become Finders
 
DidYouKnow writes:  Assuming that Faith and Njoy "found" the ultimate truth, then what is it?  Rolling back a bit on this thread, WhirlWindFlower, in her responses, seemed lost as far as this kind of Truth was presented.  >>
Faith:  When I pointed out that this knowledge is rare that was probably an understatement.  : (    it is REALLY rare.    So please do not feel badly if it seems confusing.  It was for me also when I first started tapping into it.  Know that I think back on it all... I did scream.. a LOT    :0  When The master saw me comming they would start walking the other way.    Seriously.  Spiritual temper tantrums are NOT pretty.   :P   The Dark Night of the Soul is not a lot of fun.    
DKY  : Question: Who's a Christian?  Faith?  Njoy?  WhirlWindFlower?  If so, how so?  What does being a "Christian" mean to each of them?  How instrumental is the Bible to their Christianity?
Another good question.    I suppose it means different things to different people.. depending on how they are able to perceive one such as Jesus.     I like what Gandhi said about dualistic/ religious Christians... He said that he wished Christians could understand the True Greatness of One such as Jesus.   Ironic isn't it?  That Ghandi  would want Christians to KNOW Jesus?   It really makes one STOP and ponder.    The fact is.. Gandhi  was an Awakened BEing, to say, he recognized the True and INFINITE Nature of one such as Jesus. So he wasn't speaking from a place of ignorance or being facetious. 
Christians mainly believe that Jesus is about getting their individual souls into Heaven.. but truly Jesus was about much more than that... and they have no idea what that is.   They hear with their dualistic ears and not their non-dual ears.  They MISS the deeper, most esoteric teachings.  Jesus more than suggests at one point that people will come and try and twist His words.  It never even occurs to them that they are the very ones He is referencing.   It has been suggested somewhere in these posts that if Jesus actually came back and began teaching his message of Truth his own followers would put him back up on the cross thinking him a blasphemous heratic.   I would tend to agree.. though hopefully most Chrsitians would show more compassion telling him he was insane and going to hell.   :P   People do start religions around such Great Beings .. but religion is never the plan of these Grace Bestowers and always falls short of their true Transcendent message.    Their aim is much higher.  
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DKY:   Note the prefixes.  Those prefixes are to present an idea of things unnatural.  Think:  How can anything be "unnatural".  If something exists, then it is natural.
 AGreed.  Things only seem to be SUPER Natural until one gains better understanding into a particular phenomanon.     Knowing a future event may SEEM like a supernatural ability  UNTIL  one grasps the true nature of Time/Space.  Since we are actually unlimited Consciousness ourselves we DO have the ability to expand into that ALL Knowing , extract the necessary knowledge and then return our Consciousness , our Awareness , onto a particular finite TIme Line.  ( It is good for some Christians to remember what Jesus said... THIS TOO YOU CAN DO, AND FAR MORE. )   
~ ~ ~
FAith:   Anyway.... Time Space is NOT what most people THINK it is.. but more and more science is catching on to the Reality which ancient and modern mystics have know for centuries.   They couldn't talk about it because very few would have understood them.  Few still do.   I think the mystics finally got tired of getting burned at the stake.    Not that a TRUE and Fully Realized Being would care if their physical form was burned at the stake... they really aren't very attached to their physical forms.   They simply transcend their physical forms and watch from a SAFE distance.  : )    btw  It amuses me no end that people would think one such as Jesus would have been foolish enough to actually chose to suffer on the cross.  They Don't...   a Being of that level of Awareness has already transcended all suffering.  (He had "died" into Pure or "Christ" Consciousness LONG before that).  They simply  go OOB.  Out of Body.  Some people can do this at will, you don't need to be aafully realized BEing.      Read Robert Monroes books.. back in print now  .. FAR JOURNEYS and The Ultimate Journey.     He does not deal with Transcendent Knowledge or things of that depth, still his travels into the more subtle realms of Consciousness are quite instructive.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&  DKY:    Now, add to those three, Ultimate and Absolute Truth.
Same basic problem.  What does it mean when there are attempts to go beyond Truth?  Truth is true.  What is true is truth.  Think in terms of the adjective, 'unique'.  Can something unique be MORE unique?  No.
Faith:  Truth is Truth yes, but that One Truth can be perceived from two different states... dual and non-dual.   Truth doesn't change HOWEVER.. the way we are able to perceive it that Truth DOES change.  And that matters. Generally we look at this world through distorted glasses.  Grace removes that distortion from our eyes so that we can "see" with the Clarity of The Pure Christ... THAT which recognizes the inherent perfection which exists equally in every moment and in every situation.

 ~ ~ ~
DKY:  As "more unique" cannot be used, neither can paranomal, extraordinary, supernatural, absolute/ultimate truth.
 FAith:  Quite so... there is no MORE Unique   <g>  My mother would beat me with a stick if I ever talked like that.  :P    Hopefully I anwered this clearly in my previous post.   PARA or BEYOND "normal"  is more about addressing what is beyond the NORM of  the average human experience.  It really shouldn't suggest that there is anything that is Not Natural  anywhere.  : )   As you suggest.. that would not make any sense.    That being said .. it IS natural to be able to expand one's Consciousness, one's  Awareness  beyond "normal" bounderies to the point where they can know future events.. by merging their awareness into the omnipresent NOW .. and much more than that.     If someone THINKS that is unnatural  they just haven't done it yet.   :P
                                                                                                                               ~ Peace ~
    PS   these replies are getting tooo long   LOL  Hope we don't get charged by the word here. %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Faith writes:   No, it is NOT an attempt at deflection.   Its a way of TRYING to explain with dualistic words a Non Dual perspective... which is beyond difficult.  Still  sometimes some of us TRY and give it our best shot OK?  

DidYouKnow writes:  "beyond difficult" to explain rather sums up the overall argument....

Read Njoy's profile, at the end, where she says that someone trying to explain "God" would be like a ant's attempt" or something along those lines. 

But here, your attempt to explain what is unknown, what is inexplicable, what is unthinkable, and all the rest of it.  What occurs is gibberish.

DYK, I am still waiting for you to explain the love you have for someone and explain it to my satisfaction.  I who have never experienced the love you are trying to explain, will never find your explanation understandable.  You, as a seeker of truth will never be able to find what you seek until you: "Be still, and know that I AM God."

Asking the human mind to explain God, is like asking an ant to explain the internet.

Faith has been trying, far better than I am able, to explain something to you that you are not ready to learn....yet.  But I feel certain that you will get there.  If C.S.Lewis did it, I'm sure you can also.  I wish you nothing but the best......NJOY