Mat. 6:33 "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and All these things Shall Be Added to You!!!

The catholic church Because???

Catholic orders plead poverty in Irish abuse





Shamed by child abuse, Ireland to reform services Reuters – A crow flies past the Papal Cross in Phoenix Park, in Dublin, Ireland May 20, 2009. Ireland will reform …

By SHAWN POGATCHNIK, Associated Press Writer Shawn Pogatchnik, Associated Press Writer – 59 mins ago


DUBLIN – The Catholic orders responsible for abusing Ireland 's poorest children say they're struggling to come up with money to help their victims. Yet investigations into their net worth paint a very different picture — that of nuns and brothers with billions' worth of carefully sheltered assets worldwide.
Irish government leaders said Wednesday they expect the 18 religious orders involved in abusing children in workhouse-style schools to pay a much greater share of compensation to 14,000 state-recognized victims. They also demanded that the secretive orders reveal the true scope of their wealth for the first time in face-to-face negotiations with the government.
"We have to ascertain how much they actually have. The government is adamant and determined that they will make an appropriate contribution," Defense Minister Willie O'Dea said.
The push follows last week's publication of a nine-year investigation into the widespread sexual, physical and psychological abuse of children in church care from the 1930s to 1990s, when the last of the special schools, reformatories and orphanages closed.
On Wednesday, about half of the 18 orders announced they would meet with the government. All reiterated apologies for their role in harming children — but none said they would contribute more than promised in a 2002 deal with the government that left taxpayers paying almost all of the euro1.1 billion ($1.5 billion) bill to settle the abuse claims.
Under that agreement, the orders received a state indemnity from civil lawsuits from the victims in exchange for a euro128 million ($175 million) contribution, barely a tenth of the eventual costs. Church leaders also admit they haven't even given the Irish government all that money yet, because their earmarked donations are largely in properties — some of which still remain in church hands, and most suffering heavy falls in valuation amid Ireland's recession.
The orders this week have ruled out paying more compensation, even though the report found them principally to blame and guilty of far greater abuses than they admitted to in 2002. Instead the orders have proposed unspecified contributions to a new victims' welfare fund.
The Conference of Religious in Ireland , an umbrella body, said the 18 orders are planning a private strategy session Friday in Dublin to decide on a common approach to the government.
Experts on the global fight against abuse claims say the orders won't shed light on their finances voluntarily.
"First off, don't trust anything they say," said the Rev. Thomas Doyle , an American Catholic priest who is an expert on canon law and a champion of abuse victims' rights. "And be prepared to follow up the urging for voluntary donation or contribution with some form of force."
Doyle said the Irish orders "must be forced by a power greater than themselves, and that's the courts and the Irish government, to make sure the compensation comes, even to the point of forcibly divesting them of properties."
The order most deeply implicated in the abuse report, the Christian Brothers , was founded two centuries ago in Ireland but has spread across the globe. It has the biggest property empire and faces exposure to abuse claims ranging from the United States to Canada, Australia and Ireland.
The order still owns hundreds of boys' schools in 20 countries worldwide. But U.S. and Canadian lawyers who have won multimillion-dollar sex-abuse cases against the Christian Brothers accuse the brotherhood of making itself appear as poor as possible by shifting school ownership to individual members, trusts, corporations or offshore bodies.
"Their assets and how they hold assets is of Byzantine complexity," said David Wingfield, a Toronto-based lawyer who has won abuse settlements from Christian Brothers schools in Canada , from Newfoundland to British Columbia. "They have unlimited financial resources to mount litigation, and they have absolutely no shame in doing so."
A 2001 investigation by Irish broadcasters RTE into Christian Brothers' mounting legal fights worldwide estimated the order's global property assets, including its Rome headquarters, in excess of euro1 billion ($1.4 billion).
Brother Edmund Garvey , spokesman for the Christian Brothers in Ireland and the order's former world leader, estimated this week that its approximately 100 schools in Ireland alone are worth euro400 million ($560 million).
Last year it transferred control of its Irish school network to a Dublin -based trust. Garvey insisted the trust was designed to defend the long-term viability of the order's schools, not protect the order from lawsuits. He said the order was ready to surrender Irish assets but was struggling financially to care for its 250 largely elderly brothers in Ireland.
Garvey said his order would try to find more funds to compensate victims, but wasn't sure that was realistic.
"At this point in time, I don't believe we can," he said Tuesday.
Stephen Rubino, a New Jersey-based lawyer who specializes in class-action lawsuits against Catholic authorities in the United States, said the Christian Brothers often sought "to disassociate themselves from particularly pregnant assets that could be given over to, or awarded, in a judgment."
"It's what corporations do when they feel like they're in trouble. The question is whether it's lawful," Rubino said.
Mary Raftery, the Irish journalist who exposed church abuse cover-ups in Ireland, said Christian Brothers' leaders in Australia and Canada behaved the same way during 1990s abuse scandals in those nations as it was doing now in Ireland.
"They denied the abuse, accused the victims of lying, and set about ensuring that their assets were protected from survivors and lawsuits by either creating trusts or splitting various schools and assets away from central control," she said.
Other Irish-founded orders exposed as serial abusers have a big footprint overseas, particularly the Sisters of Mercy nuns, who run scores of girls' schools in Britain , Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the United States. The Sisters of Mercy also own key hospitals in Ireland.
Their nuns were identified in the Irish report as serial abusers of girls, chiefly in the form of beatings and humiliation rather than molestation. Like the Christian Brothers, they have vowed to cooperate with the Irish government — but made no commitments on providing more funds for victims.
The Irish Times , Ireland's newspaper of record, urged the government Wednesday to go harder after the orders.
"Their clumsy and self-serving efforts to protect their own interests are rapidly alienating whatever limited support they have. This is how institutions perish. The gross imbalance which leaves the state paying 90 percent ... is indefensible," the newspaper said in an editorial.
Some victims want the government to hold a national referendum to amend Ireland's constitution so it would permit seizures of church money and property.
Michael O'Brien, 72, was separated from his seven brothers, sisters and cousins when they were placed in separate church-run residences in the 1940s. He suffered repeated rapes and beatings from age 8 onward in an industrial school run by the Rosminian order in the town of Clonmel .
O'Brien electrified the nation this week by denouncing a government minister on live television, detailing the perversions and terror he endured as a boy and demanding a constitutional crackdown on church wealth.
"Don't say you can't change it! You are the government of this state. You run this state. So, for God's sake, stop mealy-mouthing because I am sick of it!" he shouted.
So the Questions are;
1) "What is so great about Organized Religion"???
2) "WHY does the catholic Religion INSIST (via PAPA) that they are the "Only true Religion & Way to Heaven when they have Practiced this kind of Behavior Around the World for Centuries"???
3) "By it's Nature, doesn't Christianity (a one on one Relationship with God through Christ) Preclude this type of Behavior"???


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16 helpful answers

It is never too late.  God loves you and wants a relationship with you no matter what you have done in your life.  He stands at the door and knocks.  Let him in. 

That is why when many people die they will be told to go away, you never knew me.  That is why it is so important to find a chruch that follows Jesus as he is the truth and the light and no one comes to the Father except through Him.  The way is narrow and many will be turned away.  It is not about doing good works.  It is all about believing in Jesus Christ and accepting Him as our personal Savior.  Realizing that we need a savior to be able to approach the throne of God.  Check out Oakpointe.org to see such a church.  

Posted 2009-05-27T21:32:08Z
dave was invited by Yedda to answer this question.

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4 helpful answers

1) Organized religion is "good" because it can regulate a set of expectations regarding something as intangible and immeasurable as religion.  It is my understanding that in their eyes, to some extent, the leaders of big churches and big denominations must feel that this - their over-creeds and over-lords - helps the leaders of the smaller church families to be able to all understand things the same way so that there will be no divisions among the churches.  Honestly, you must realize that they really think that they are doing a good thing.

However, this helpful plan is not in the Holy Scriptures.  It can and has been misused and abused because of sinful, fallible people. Just as the idea of a pure communism may be a lovely and even Christian thought (based on the early churches of the book of the Acts of the Apostles) - but sinful, fallible people just can't pull it off, because we are not pure, perfect or even all on the same page when we say or think that we are.  Which leads to...

2) Any church of Christ may claim to be the only true religion and way to heaven, even using scriptures themselves to explain what they mean by that, AND STILL have sinners in their midst.  People keep secrets.  That's what they do.  That doesn't mean that they should.  We are to confess our sins to one another, and not to someone purportedly "higher up" than us, or closer to God.  A person put into that position is tempted in so many ways to keep things hidden, to keep up apperances.  Because he is just a person.  Even if called by God to do great things, he is just a person.  Whether in the Catholic Church or not.

3) And so you wonder if being a Christian precludes sinful behaviour?  If becoming a Christian washes away all sins, both past and future so that you will never sin?  There is none that has not sinned, not one.  The Holy Scriptures say.  A one on one relationship with God does not remove one from the temptations of the world, but provides a way out of those temptations.  Not all who call out "Lord, Lord, haven't we done great things in your Name?" actually know the LORD, either.

I agree with you leading question that there is little good in setting up an organization that has not been appointed by GOD, or in thinking that we as fallible creatures, liable to make mistakes and to fall (sometimes because of pride in our previously not falling), that we have a better system than each person living day by day in pursuit of holiness, as our Creator is holy, and encouraging one another to do so in our day to day lives.  But a Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox, or Evangelical, or Independant Christian; even a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist, a Hindu, an agnostic or an atheist; no one has the right in this or any case to cast the first stone. 

The thing is to pity them for their foolishness.  To pity the folks who went through what they did as children.  To pray for them to repent - to turn from past misdeeds and pursue righteousness.  To encourage those who have recovered and gotten past the sins done to them, and to encourage those who have done wrong in the past to forgive themselves and to sin no more.

Yes, it is a shame and I am ashamed that those who call themselves followers of Christ would rather hoard money than help those in need.  The spit on His Name.  But I too have sinned.  And I know that no amount of money from those who have sinned against me in my past will help me.  It is not money that is wanted, but humility, grief, repentance, and forgiveness.

Praying for forgiveness in your heart as well.

Posted 2009-05-28T19:37:56Z
LisaM was invited by Yedda to answer this question.

 
95 helpful answers

Mat. 6:33 "Seek Ye First the Kingdom of God and All these things Shall Be Added to You!!!

"1) Organized religion is "good" because it can regulate a set of expectations regarding something as intangible and immeasurable as religion."

Here we see perhaps the Largest Organization in the World & the "Papa" can't (or WON'T") Control his "Underlings"??? Do U know Why??? Simple, when they Die all their "Millions" are turned over to the "Organization" (catholic church), so why "Order" his "Underlings" out of Office or Order them to make "Restitution" to their "Flocks" as that would "Harm the Bottom Line"!!! Religion IS TANGIBLE & "Papa Measure EVERY PENNY" of their Wealth!!! As for the "Regulation of Expectations", who was doing the "Regulating" of those Involved here & over the Centuries that this has been going on???

"3) And so you wonder if being a Christian precludes sinful behavior?  If becoming a Christian washes away all sins, both past and future so that you will never sin?  There is none that has not sinned, not one.  The Holy Scriptures say.  A one on one relationship with God does not remove one from the temptations of the world, but provides a way out of those temptations."

I don't wonder, as the "Old Sin Nature is in our Every Cell having been imputed at Birth" and accepting Christ does NOT prevent one from Sinning, rather provides a means of returning to Fellowship with God through "Rebound" (confession & repentance of our Sins) unless one has NOT Accepted Christ which seems to be the case here over the vast amount of time this has been going on.

"But I too have sinned.  And I know that no amount of money from those who have sinned against me in my past will help me.  It is not money that is wanted, but humility, grief, repentance, and forgiveness."

That we all have sinned is true, but we're talking not just stealing candy at the drug store, but Criminal Activity Physically & Mentally Harming People, that the Organization has Deliberately Covered Up, showing NO Remorse, Repentance or Humility!!!

John

Posted 2009-05-28T21:11:45Z
 
29 helpful answers

Love everybody!Smile

Organized religion should control this kind of thing to see that this does not  happen if they are doing what they should do. If the top is at ease in Zion and not paying attention to the rest of the church, anything can happen and probably will--as it did.  Christianity believes man is bent toward evil and that temptation will never totally leave you; you must worship and pray and practice your faith daily to be faithful to Christ.  Some don't take  this call of Jesus to "follow me" very seriously. They live fast and loose  and do what they want. There should be strict discipline in the organized church--Catholic or Protestant--and their should be consequences for any failures. Many priests or ministers should be put out of service, and I don't care how much of a shortagae there is. There is no excuse for immorality among the religious workers or clergy.

Bottom line - organized religion failed - that is my opinion; the goverment must not fail their people.

Any church that thinks theirs is the only true church is wrong! Plain enough?

A sincere Christian really living the life Jesus called him or her to live is precluded from doing what you referenced to. The problem is not all Christian live the Godly life as Christ calls them to do. If you do not follow Christ faithfully and sincerely you may do things that will surprise yourself. Compromise on one thing and then another, and another and the light of Jesus no longer shines through you, but you still want to be called a Christian. Salvation is a gift of God but His grace and forgiveness is extended to those who are sincere and are continuing to daily follow Him. There is no CHEAP GRACE.

Posted 2009-10-26T03:51:20Z
funguy was invited by Yedda to answer this question.

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